Good and bad advice from model agents | Finding a dream maker agent

Kayla MiChele

At what point in your career put you on the map of being a supermodel?

Joan Smalls

I feel like I hit a glass ceiling within that industry. I hate redundancy. So I hate doing the same thing over and over again. I was extremely fortunate and grateful for the money I was making, and I was saving it. But it got to a point where I just said, I didn’t come from Puerto Rico just for this… you know? I started booking jobs with top models, like Coco Rocha and Liya Kebede, and it would be, little old me. And I’m like, wait a second, if the client can see that I can hold my ground with these other girls that do high fashion, I obviously have something because I sell. As well my image fits in with this group and I’m like, “Something is not computing, like what is it?” So I started getting frustrated and I went to talk to the agency and I was like, you know, I want to do more high fashion things. I know I do some cute editorials and during fashion week I would do some cool shows. It was enough to keep me relevant and cool for my clients, but not enough for high fashion. I just remember them making excuses, saying, “Well Joan, we showed you to everybody”. And I said, “What about couture?” They said, “Couture is not going to break your career. Only rich women go to couture to see shows, that’s not going to change anything”. And I was like, oh wow. It was always like they were inflicting more self doubt in me. And the breaking point for me was that they had different categories in the agency, like commercial girls, high fashion girls, direct bookings. And I found out that one of my agents wanted to switch me from the main board to direct bookings, which was kind of like a downgrade. It meant like I already had my clients and they already knew that they were going to book me but they weren’t going to push me. I became like a cash cow. And I think that was like the tipping point for me, where I was like, oh, so you don’t see it for me? And I just decided to leave, I was like, I need to find somebody else. So then I spoke to an agent, his name is Kyle Hagler from IMG, and I remember being so scared. I was so stressed because it’s like one of those things where it’s like, if I fall flat on my face, you know, I hate to be like, oh, damn, they said it.

But I think I was more happier knowing that I tried, than giving up before trying. That was my fire, and I wanted to prove them wrong. I wanted to prove it to them. I wanted to prove it to the naysayers that say it can’t be done, or this is your limit.

And I was like, You know what, let me do it. So I had a conversation with him and I was like, you know, I don’t know if I’m supposed to reach out or you guys are supposed to reach out to the girls? And he was like, you know, if the girl feels like she’s not happy with her representation, it’s okay to reach out. And I remember saying, I was so desperate, I told them. If I don’t have to work for a year… I’ve saved enough money. If you need me to gain weight, lose weight, chop my hair, color my hair. Let me know… I’ll do it. Like I’m willing to take that risk, in order to know that there’s going to be an opportunity. I said, just show me the direction I’ll do the rest and he was like, okay, and like it lit fire on him too because I think he was at a point in his career where he wasn’t feeling inspired as well, by like models or like the industry and it was almost like he wanted to prove it too that he can you know, break a girl into the industry. And we just became a good fucking team. And he said, “Joan go to Paris during Couture and try to get an exclusive. And I said, “But my other agency told me that that’s not gonna make or break me”, and he was like, “Well, they don’t know shit”. And when I asked him if I needed to change anything he said, “No Joan, just the only thing… just don’t be as commercial or as like, you know, pretty. He’s like just be more tomboy”. I said, “Done!” I am a tomboy, I am from the country. That is my life it’s just like you know you mold and I was like, oh, this is done deal. So then I started walking more meaner, more like, androgynous and just like.. I switched it up. I went to the casting in Paris. I went to Givenchy, met Ricardo, they put me in that leotard, and did my polaroids. I was super shy and I was like, whatever… I don’t know what’s going to happen, especially after going from like 10 to 15 castings a day and getting turned down every single time and not booking everything. And as soon as I walked out the door my agent called me and he’s like, “Joan don’t go anywhere else. You just got the exclusive for Givenchy!” 

And like my whole hairs on my body stood up and I just remember telling myself, “Joan, this is it!!! This is the moment you’ve been waiting for and this is what’s going to change the trajectory. Like I felt it in my fucking soul!

And that was it basically! I did the fucking exclusive, he bleached my brows.. I look androgynous and people were like, who the fuck is this bitch?

Kayla MiChele

Wow, I love this! What year was that around?

Joan Smalls

Girl, I don’t know I’m so bad with years because of this industry. I don’t even know what day it is sometimes. I go by numbers.

Kayla MiChele

I know I feel you! Was that the time when… I remember there was this campaign with Mariacarla? Was that the same time as that campaign?

Little Red Riding Hood. #TBT My 1st @Givenchy campaign c. 2010. THANK YOU for making my dreams come true, Riccardo! pic.twitter.com/jkCxpkq0OR

— Joan Smalls (@joansmalls) May 26, 2016

Joan Smalls

No. So I did the couture and then the season after that, then I did the campaign. It was the one that I’m dressed in all red and I have my hands around some boys. And that was the image that like fuck with everybody… they’re like, what the fuck?

Kayla MiChele

You had bleach eyebrows in that right? 

Joan Smalls

Yeah, exactly.

Kayla MiChele

I see the image so vividly. It was an instant save as an inspiration source for me.

Joan Smalls

Mert and Marcus shot it. So you know they’re like masterminds in that space and I became friends with them too. I was just with them in Brazil, so it’s good to always, you know, build relationships with people in the industry because, you know, you support each other throughout.

Kayla MiChele

Wow, so Givenchy in the couture show specifically, which was the opposite of what the agency previously said, that was the moment that you were like, “I made it”?

Joan Smalls

Exactly.

That’s why sometimes you can’t listen to what people say because sometimes they project their own self doubt on what can’t be done. And the same thing that I was told that wouldn’t make me was the thing that put me on the map.

You know, and had I allowed that to seep into my brain. I wouldn’t have gone that route. Sometimes it’s scary, trust me, to take a risk and you know, it’s dark when you’re doubting yourself, but you know, it’s better to live in that fear of taking the risk than never knowing if it was going to happen.

Kayla MiChele

Yeah, I can relate. I remember meeting with agencies for representation awhile back and them asking me in the meeting, they were really nice and they were just like what do you want to do with your career and I was like, you know, I kind of want what everyone wants. I want Vogue. I want W. I want V. I remember specifically saying that. And I have not yet worked for them yet. They literally laughed, the two of them laughed and said, get in line honey, everyone does! That’s what they said. And then I had my next meeting the same week. It was with my first agency I ever signed with and I said the same thing to him. And he became my agent and I said the same thing. And he said, oh, we can do that. It was just very casual like no, I got you… you know. I knew then what the right fit was, you know? So it’s really interesting. I say this to my kids all the time too. I’m like, “Just because someone says something doesn’t mean you have to think the same way or believe that”, you know. Even when there’s commercials on television. I’m like,”Just because someone’s saying something doesn’t mean it’s true. Like you don’t have to drink that beer on that beach to be a cool person like this commercial is telling you.”

Joan Smalls

Yeah, that’s one thing my dad always said to me. He said, “Joan, question everything”. He’s like, “Be always inquisitive”. You know and the older you get you understand, like everybody has their own truth. No one is right, more than yours. If you deem it that you believe it. So it’s like you’re going to create and narrate your own story.

Career goals

Kayla MiChele

I love your message. So at this time now in your career, what is a career goal for you that you would love to manifest?

Joan Smalls

I would say within the industry, things that I haven’t gotten yet, would be a French VOGUE cover and a British VOGUE cover. Those are the two ones that I haven’t gotten under my belt. As far as you know, like an accolade in my career. What else.. I mean I just think it’s like also just growth in different spaces and you know, getting more contracts if it’s a beauty contract, athleisure wear.. those are like always the heavy hitters and to build relationships with brands. So I would say those are the things that I want to tackle. Especially because, I don’t know if you know, but I have scoliosis. 

Kayla MiChele

Yeah. I remember.

Joan Smalls

So it’s sort of like a deviation of your vertebrae and I’ve always had to have discipline with my body, not because I want to be skinny because trust me, I’m always trying to gain weight and have muscle, but I always have to do it so I could keep my back strong and my glutes strong so it can alleviate the pain and it doesn’t make my back go worse. So because I didn’t get the operation and basically my crookedness is so much that I should have had one. Even doctors are surprised that I didn’t do it. They’re like, “Wow, you actually should have had surgery”. They are like, “Do you have pain?” And I’m like, “Occasionally I’ll have spasms, just like I pulled something or I’m laying down for too long or standing up for too long. You know, like just normal stuff”. And they’re like, “Oh wow, this is actually really interesting because someone like you would be experiencing chronic pain”. And they’re like, “Whatever it is, you’re doing, just keep doing that because it’s maintained your curvature”. So I think that’s a message I always wanted to share with people because sometimes people think that being skinny is a thing or that people work out to be skinny. And in my case, that’s not it.

Kayla MiChele

Wow, interesting. Awe! So I wanted to ask you a few more questions about your career.

What’s it like working with iconic legends like Steven Meisel, Pat McGrath and Guido?

Like when you work for Italian Vogue or on an editorial job. Just thinking about it.. I would love to be a fly on the wall on set because I do know that a lot of the hair and makeup assistants that work with that team. They are not necessarily on set. They’re more like behind the scenes.

Joan Smalls

Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Kayla MiChele

It must be so incredible to be in the presence and collaborating as a model especially?

Joan Smalls

Yeah, I feel like the first couple of times it was nerve racking because of that, you know, because of the weight it had. And you’re like, “Oh my god, I finally made it to be in front of the lens of this legend, or, you know, working with Pat or with Guido or Orlando Pita or like with so many that I’ve been fortunate enough to work with. You’re kind of a little bit nervous because they’ve made it on their own and they’ve created their own legacy. I just appreciate the creative-ness that comes behind it and they’re so in tuned and so.. like a perfectionist, because of their creativity. They’re like this is the vision, so they have to capture it. So a lot of the time you could be there for hours getting hair and makeup ready because they’re like perfecting it. And then once you’re there you know Steven is so incredibly sweet, and kind and gentle, which is like weird. And you’re like, “Okay!” He’s a true master of making sure that talent feels comfortable. Because he knows that if the person is comfortable, you’re gonna get the image you want. So he makes sure that nobody stresses her out and he’ll have a mirror. He’ll say to the production, “Did you ask her if she’s okay, if she needed some water? Did you ask if she needs a chair?” He’s basically training them to make sure to take care of the talent. He basically lets you be. He’s not telling you what to do. He just sees what you work with and then if he sees something and catches it, he’ll tell you to do that again. There’s nothing stressful about it. And it just flows so easily that sometimes I’m even surprised and you’ll get a shot sometimes in like five minutes. And you’re just like, “Really?” And then you look at it and you’re like “Oh wow, this is insane”. And he really is like a director. You know like even when he does the film’s he’s just directing you and he feeds you this energy of like, yes, this is what he wants. And the fabulous thing is you’re done by 5pm. There is no one working late, which is amazing. It’s so professional.

Kayla MiChele

That’s really great. I mean, I tell you sometimes those 10 hour days they just suck the life out of you.

Joan Smalls

And I’m like, “I have no more to give guys!” But sometimes like it’s a balance because sometimes you have really easy days and you’re like, “Oh wow, that’s it?” And then other days it’s like, “Ughf!” So it balances itself off, it’s not every time it’s the same.

Favorite type of work as a model and career regrets

Kayla MiChele

Yeah, exactly. So when you first started modeling in New York, did you have a favorite type of job back then compared to a favorite type of job now, and when I mean type I mean like shows versus shoots?

Joan Smalls

I think back then, for me it was shows because I would shoot so many so often. And then it was kind of like I was on autopilot because it was like, you know you hit the poses and you know what to do and then you’re just like replicating over and over and over and over again.

The shows were like more of an adrenaline rush. It was like, you get there, it’s hair and makeup, a bunch of people, even though they fried your hair. And like you know, they pinch you with the eye curler and stuff.

But the results were more immediate. You know you would hit the runway and you see the pictures that day and I would go to .. what was that one website? … fashion….?

Kayla MiChele

Style.com?

Joan Smalls

No, the other one was called Fashion something (Fashion Spot) and it was like pages and they would talk about the model and show the picture of what she did?

Kayla MiChele

It would show like new editorials that came out too and like people would comment.

Joan Smalls

Yeah, it was like a blog. It was called fashion something.. I don’t know if it still exists, but I was addicted to that page and so was my mom. So yeah, so I would say shows were more exciting for me back then because I just got to strut my little thing and like being backstage and all that commotion and it just broke the monotony of shooting. 

Kayla MiChele

And nowadays?

Joan Smalls

Nowadays, I would say a little bit of both for different reasons. The editorials are because it just feeds my creative nature. I’m very into storytelling. And that’s how I’ve always projected my career when I shoot. I don’t see it just as an image, I see it as a persona, a character, which a lot of the time they’ll tell you like, “Okay, this is the girl, this is the vibe This is the vision”. And you transform into that character even though you’re not speaking with your words, you should be able to express yourself with your body, your movement, your eyes, and I just love that creativeness behind it. Mert and Marcus were always good for that, Steven Klein also is another master. It’s almost like a movie, but in imagery. So I just always appreciate that till this day, because I’m like, damn, it looks cool. Like I don’t see myself, I see a version of me, you know? You just speak through the pages rather than just being like a dead little fish. And then fashion shows now. I love it because I get to see it firsthand. And then also it’s kind of like a reunion. Because everybody’s traveling they have their own lives. This is two times, three times in a year where you get to congregate with your peers and with your friends and you get to catch up on the things of life. What you’re doing. It’s a great moment.

Kayla MiChele

Yeah, you’re right it is like a reunion from people that live all over the world and seeing all the celebrities, it’s interesting. That’s for sure. So what do you think your life would have been like if you never pursued a modeling career? Like where do you think you might have lived right now or what career path you may have followed at this point?

Joan Smalls

That’s interesting… I think I probably would have been in Puerto Rico, or maybe actually would have gone somewhere else in the States, maybe Florida. But most likely I would have carried my study in psychology and gotten my doctorate and specialized in couples therapy. I think that would have been my career path.

Kayla MiChele

Oh, wow. That’s interesting. Do you have any regrets in your career?

Joan Smalls

I can’t speak specifically of something I did, where I’m like, “Oh, I regret that”. I just regret moments where sometimes I felt pressured to do something that I know I didn’t want to do. And then when I’m there doing it, I don’t feel fulfilled. And I feel like I’m going against myself, and I’m like, I shouldn’t be here. Like I’m not enjoying this and it doesn’t put you in a good vibrational spirit. I think it happens you know, like once in a while that you’re just like, oh, fuck it, you forget it. And you don’t put that much thought into it after it’s done. But I would say that at this moment. I feel like a lot of models go through it all the time because every time we talk to each other. They’re like, “Why the fuck am I doing this shit?” You know, like right? Or like fuck these favors, because it’s always a favor that never gets returned. You know, it’s always a… I have to fly myself out for this shoot, this, that and the third, and then the person doesn’t remember the favor and it’s like, “Wow, was there something that gained for me from it?”

Challenges and triumphs of working in the fashion industry as a person of color

Kayla MiChele

Sure. Exactly. I know what you mean. So I want to talk a little bit about any struggles or observations or experiences on your rise to the top that you find interesting to share specifically as a woman of color.

Joan Smalls

Yeah, I mean, with that, I would say one, it was just tokenism. You know, it was just one space for one or two of us. Or me being the only black or Latin girl in a room. On top of just being the only model, sometimes I was just the only person, so not even hair, makeup, assistants… nobody else looked like me. And a lot of the times it was like I was in a room having to represent for who I represent, if that makes sense. And I feel like that was a pressure sometimes. And then also too just there wasn’t a lot of camaraderie because of it. So the industry made girls feel like there was just one spot. So whoever was up and coming, there was no support from your peers that looked like you, before you or while you were doing your thing. You know, so I think a lot of that was, you know, the struggle, I would say or the letdown. Especially the things done behind closed doors from models stopping you from, you know, getting certain bookings because of that mentality that they kept. And I think that’s just so unfortunate and immature, that you buy into what the industry made it to be, rather than just saying, there’s room for all of us. Nobody’s taking from you.

Kayla MiChele

Isn’t it interesting to see how different casting is since after the Black Lives Matter movement? 

Joan Smalls

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 

Kayla MiChele

It’s completely different and it’s so interesting to see the revolution that happened.

Joan Smalls

Even so, they’re booking real people, not even models, like what they call street casting. Which I think is amazing because at the end of the day, people always want to see themselves represented in whichever form that is, if it’s your sexuality, if it’s your skin color, if it’s your culture, your race, your gender, your age group. I just think you know, fashion has the power of being able to be the curator. So why not do it in a positive light rather than saying, oh, this is my vision of beauty constantly, rather than keeping an open mind. I understand your aesthetic for a show, but don’t make people feel alienated.

Kayla MiChele

Sure. Yes.

Joan Smalls

Yeah, it’s amazing. I love it.

More on Joan Smalls

Supermodel Joan Smalls Embodies the Essences of 1970’s Hair Vibes

Part 1 Interview | Joan Smalls on Passions, Childhood & Pursuing a Modeling Career

Stay tuned for Part 3 coming soon, as we discuss topics including her personal hair, skincare and makeup tips, advice for styling textured hair, and who her celebrity crush is. Sign up for our newsletter to be the first to know when it drops!

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